*Spoiler*Official CSAC scorecard(Pic)

[CARVER]

I think nelson hamilton was the only judge that was wrong. Shogun won the fourth. I don't know how people can be so sure the Shogun was robbed. I felt that Machida won rounds 1-3 and shogun won the final two. He simply wasn't trying to finish the fight he was point fighting. I couldn't hear the commentary when I watched it live but I watched it again last night and Joe and Goldie seemed to really favor Shogun. Machida was starting to tee off on Shogun and wasn't taking any shots and then he hit Machida once and Joe screamed, "SHOGUN LANDED A RIGHT HAND!!!" He was acting like the one punch counted for more than all of Machida's punches. It doesn't negate the fact that Machida hit him 5 or 6 times right before that. They were the same way when Rampage lost to Forrest thinking that Forrest was rocked everytime he got hit even though he was fine.

Those flurries you are talking about, Machida's shots weren't really landing, Shogun was connecting.

Striking- Shogun threw more, landed more, landed a higher percentage, and landed more power shots total and to the head (check fightmetric)...and shogun inflicted more damage

My exact thoughts.
grappling- very little grappling but shogun controlled the clinch

aggression- shogun threw more strikes and was constantly backing machida up

octagon control- shogun constantly backing up machida, pressing him against the cage during the clinch

Shogun basically won all elements of the fight. The only thing Machida did better at was landing a few more knees to the body.

Worst decision in MMA championship history

I actually did my own counts HERE for this exact reason. Everybody is claiming Shogun's 2:1 striking ratio with Machida. The result of my counts were that in regular strikes they actually had exactly the same and that while Shogun punished Lyoto's legs there were not 50 leg kicks in that fight as fight metric implies. While doing my counts I found that they must have A) given him points for every attack that would either clip Machidas hands (aka a block) and also for the leg kicks where he would get his toes on Machida's shins and B) they counted the knees to the thighs under the leg strike category (rightfully so) when that sort of makes the numbers exaggerated because he had 20 of these knees (25% of his strikes or 50% of the difference between him and Lyoto) When I took those out they ended up having exactly the same amount of strikes landed (my criteria was it had to have at least a little effect on the other fighter). Those knees did do damage but I feel like those should be considered more of a gameplan point as they do damage but take a relatively low amount of skill to land multiples in succesion. If somebody did that all fight they could get like 400 of them in and they would do damage but should somebody win a round if the rest of the round is them losing (Rounds 1 - 3 he had less strikes 4 - 5 he had more excluding these knees). Anyways my count and analysis is up there feel free to take a look ive posted the numbers.

O and the reason I did this is because for the first time for me people are referring to fightmetric as their source for Shogun winning instead of talking about the fight. The only reason I can see for this is that the numbers are heavily favored for shogun (on fightmetric) when the fight was actually extremely close and it makes it seem like the tipping point for shogun winning. If you watched that fight and thought that Shogun outstruck Lyoto 2:1 you missed alot of Lyotos attacks and/or counted anything that clipped his hands or shins. (not discrediting the leg kicks because the ones that landed did alot of damage but alot of ones kindof skimmed and fightmetric counted them).

I don't think that's true while i've been on this forum people have referred to fight metric on countless times after a close fight,the main one was Bisping v Hamill and plenty of others,and they have proved reliable over the past.

[Nicksoap]

This is straight up bs those judges are insane, new judges please CSAC, they should be in some way affiliated with MMA not boxing and more importantly have a better understanding of MMA fights. A great idea is if retired fighters would apply to be judges for MMA fights.

I agree, they need judges that at least have an idea of what mma is. They have no idea how dangerous those leg kicks and body kicks shogun was landing are. He was more aggressive and had more control (which are 2 criteria for winning a round). These judges are clearly more boxing oriented and it's a shame.

[KingOfPancrase]

If Lsquared thought Okami won, then it shouldn't be a surprise that he doesn't think Shogun got jobbed

true that bro. TRUE THAT.

ouch, you guys are brutal.

let me go back and rewatch both fights, i was under the influence that night, and my memory may be tainted a bit...

i know for a fact sonnen was sloppy, hes always sloppy.

and i dont really like okami either, but his striking was crisp, and he is the better fighter imo [which obviously means nothing.]

and please read my other posts, i think the decision couldve gone either way...machida or rua.

i will rewatch, stone sober.

all in good fun my man

I cant beleive you are commenting on fights you watched while high lmfao.

Btw bro Sonnen was pretty impressive with the standup that night. Not bad at all.

[Ghostman]

I think nelson hamilton was the only judge that was wrong. Shogun won the fourth. I don't know how people can be so sure the Shogun was robbed. I felt that Machida won rounds 1-3 and shogun won the final two. He simply wasn't trying to finish the fight he was point fighting. I couldn't hear the commentary when I watched it live but I watched it again last night and Joe and Goldie seemed to really favor Shogun. Machida was starting to tee off on Shogun and wasn't taking any shots and then he hit Machida once and Joe screamed, "SHOGUN LANDED A RIGHT HAND!!!" He was acting like the one punch counted for more than all of Machida's punches. It doesn't negate the fact that Machida hit him 5 or 6 times right before that. They were the same way when Rampage lost to Forrest thinking that Forrest was rocked everytime he got hit even though he was fine.

Those flurries you are talking about, Machida's shots weren't really landing, Shogun was connecting.

Striking- Shogun threw more, landed more, landed a higher percentage, and landed more power shots total and to the head (check fightmetric)...and shogun inflicted more damage

My exact thoughts.
grappling- very little grappling but shogun controlled the clinch

aggression- shogun threw more strikes and was constantly backing machida up

octagon control- shogun constantly backing up machida, pressing him against the cage during the clinch

Shogun basically won all elements of the fight. The only thing Machida did better at was landing a few more knees to the body.

Worst decision in MMA championship history

I actually did my own counts HERE for this exact reason. Everybody is claiming Shogun's 2:1 striking ratio with Machida. The result of my counts were that in regular strikes they actually had exactly the same and that while Shogun punished Lyoto's legs there were not 50 leg kicks in that fight as fight metric implies. While doing my counts I found that they must have A) given him points for every attack that would either clip Machidas hands (aka a block) and also for the leg kicks where he would get his toes on Machida's shins and B) they counted the knees to the thighs under the leg strike category (rightfully so) when that sort of makes the numbers exaggerated because he had 20 of these knees (25% of his strikes or 50% of the difference between him and Lyoto) When I took those out they ended up having exactly the same amount of strikes landed (my criteria was it had to have at least a little effect on the other fighter). Those knees did do damage but I feel like those should be considered more of a gameplan point as they do damage but take a relatively low amount of skill to land multiples in succesion. If somebody did that all fight they could get like 400 of them in and they would do damage but should somebody win a round if the rest of the round is them losing (Rounds 1 - 3 he had less strikes 4 - 5 he had more excluding these knees). Anyways my count and analysis is up there feel free to take a look ive posted the numbers.

O and the reason I did this is because for the first time for me people are referring to fightmetric as their source for Shogun winning instead of talking about the fight. The only reason I can see for this is that the numbers are heavily favored for shogun (on fightmetric) when the fight was actually extremely close and it makes it seem like the tipping point for shogun winning. If you watched that fight and thought that Shogun outstruck Lyoto 2:1 you missed alot of Lyotos attacks and/or counted anything that clipped his hands or shins. (not discrediting the leg kicks because the ones that landed did alot of damage but alot of ones kindof skimmed and fightmetric counted them).

I don't think that's true while i've been on this forum people have referred to fight metric on countless times after a close fight,the main one was Bisping v Hamill and plenty of others,and they have proved reliable over the past.[/quote]

I am just saying that it is the first time somebody has tried to disprove MY OPINION using fightmetric.. and it may be true that they are usually accurate but those knees to the thigh and kicks that barely clipped machida (and same goes for mahida) skewed the results

[KingOfPancrase]

This is straight up bs those judges are insane, new judges please CSAC, they should be in some way affiliated with MMA not boxing and more importantly have a better understanding of MMA fights. A great idea is if retired fighters would apply to be judges for MMA fights.

I agree, they need judges that at least have an idea of what mma is. They have no idea how dangerous those leg kicks and body kicks shogun was landing are. He was more aggressive and had more control (which are 2 criteria for winning a round). These judges are clearly more boxing oriented and it's a shame.

and the sad thing is shogun landed more punches than machida to...... So the judges did not even get that right even if they are boxing oriented........what a garbage decision.

[Nicksoap]

fightmetric is BS and you know it. It also says that Machida was 6-16 with jabs. Machida doesn't throw jabs, he throws hard, straight punches. Plus, no points for takedown defense. People think that it was only a striking fight and forget that Shogun tried and failed to take him down. Does that not matter? It's best to break it down by round. because points are score by takedowns and takedowns defense, octagon control, striking, and grappling. In a straight kickboxing match Shogun would have won. Those were devistating knees to the body also. Look at Shogun post-fight when his team is celebrating if you don't believe me.

lol points for takedown defense? should you also get points for blocking punches? where do you come up with this?

hello.

you get points for a takedown, ie you get points for stuffing a takedown, this doesnt make sense to you?

are you telling me gleison tibau, didnt get a million points for his million tds on neer? its the same in reverse...

and because machida punches are unable to be seen by the naked drunk eye, doesnt mean they didnt happen...

ok so lets do a little thought experiment.

Imagine a round where the only action that took place was Fighter A trying to take down Fighter B 5 times, and none were successful.

Who wins the round?

If you say Fighter A you are probably making the argument that even though he didn’t get the takedown, he was the aggressor, and Fighter B launched 0 offensive.

Now if you say Fighter B won the round you are probably your justification is probably that he won bc the other guy wanted it to go to the ground and he imposed his will by not letting it go to the ground.

Ok now imagine a round where the only action was 5 high kicks thrown by fighter A and they were blocked each time. Who wins that round? If you chose fighter B in the first scenario you have to choose fighter B in this scenario, which means a guy can win a round by simply blocking and not doing anything on the offensive. If you chose fighter A then you give a tie to the aggressor so to speak.

So then if you think that defending a takedown “scores points” (even though no individual move ever really scores a point in a 10 point round system) you have to agree that a guy can win a round by doing nothing other than blocking punches and defending takedowns, or moving out of the way for that matter.

I prefer to give a tie to the aggressor. After all aggressiveness is a scoring criteria, and the aggressor usually dictates ring control, and it is more risky to be the aggressor.

Now that is a philosophical thought. I totally agree.

My problem is no one is mentioning shogun's aggressiveness. Shogun was pushing the pace for most of the fight, backing machida up.

Shogun was doing way more damage...especially to machida's legs. Notice how often machida went from an orthodox stance to an unorthodox stance. He had to because his lead leg was getting destroyed. Shogun did more damage, controlled the octagon, and was more aggressive...I don't know about anyone else but just that alone gives the victory to shogun. Yes it was a close fight but the i don't believe the judges know the sport well enough to judge a fight like this.

[kingomegared]

Theres always a song for every ocassion

[BgTony]

Now that is a philosophical thought. I totally agree.

My problem is no one is mentioning shogun's aggressiveness. Shogun was pushing the pace for most of the fight, backing machida up.

Shogun was doing way more damage...especially to machida's legs. Notice how often machida went from an orthodox stance to an unorthodox stance. He had to because his lead leg was getting destroyed. Shogun did more damage, controlled the octagon, and was more aggressive...I don't know about anyone else but just that alone gives the victory to shogun. Yes it was a close fight but the i don't believe the judges know the sport well enough to judge a fight like this.

You're overstating the amount of damage that SHogun did to Machidas legs. Machida switched stances mainly to throw off Shogun's attacks. After switching stances, Machida landed some good shots.

Everyone also loves to neglect the flying knees that Machida threw into shoguns midsection. Or the straight lefts Shogun ate nearly EVERY time he threw anything.

Machida's legs weren't that beat up. He walked just fine. Not like Rampage who visibily limped out of the cage and had obvious trouble with his footing during the fight.

[clark13]

Now that is a philosophical thought. I totally agree.

My problem is no one is mentioning shogun's aggressiveness. Shogun was pushing the pace for most of the fight, backing machida up.

Shogun was doing way more damage...especially to machida's legs. Notice how often machida went from an orthodox stance to an unorthodox stance. He had to because his lead leg was getting destroyed. Shogun did more damage, controlled the octagon, and was more aggressive...I don't know about anyone else but just that alone gives the victory to shogun. Yes it was a close fight but the i don't believe the judges know the sport well enough to judge a fight like this.[/quote]

And on top of that he was blocking a lot of those punches to the head by Machida

[pandajerk19]

im still fucking pissed..

[greco]

What's the worst is Machida was basically in tears during the decision with his head down staring at the canvas knowing he lost, yet when they called his name he took full credit and gave none to Shogun. I remember in Pride when Rampage beat Ninja rua, rampage told Rua he won and even offered him the trophy. Machida was to ignorant to do anything. I am no longer a Machida fan

[Ghostman]

u guys say this was such a bad decision that he shouldve given him the belt... wtf? would u have done the same prbly not the fact that rampage did it once does not make it the standard for what should happen in close fights... and thats what this was a close fight. not a blowout towards shoguns side like fightmetric says but a close fight that happened to go machidas way.. this decision was not nearly as bad as ppl are making it out to be and im really beginning to think it is just the disappointment that is getting ppl bcuz this was not an easy win for either.. and machida prbly had his head down bcuz for the first time ever it wasnt a sure thing that he was going to win he was probly jsut disappointed in his performance

[kingomegared]

What's the worst is Machida was basically in tears during the decision with his head down staring at the canvas knowing he lost, yet when they called his name he took full credit and gave none to Shogun. I remember in Pride when Rampage beat Ninja rua, rampage told Rua he won and even offered him the trophy. Machida was to ignorant to do anything. I am no longer a Machida fan

its not Machida's fault...he lost the last 2 rounds but his corner told him he wont the first 3. you'd stop being someone's fan because of that

[Zarcsby]

What's the worst is Machida was basically in tears during the decision with his head down staring at the canvas knowing he lost, yet when they called his name he took full credit and gave none to Shogun. I remember in Pride when Rampage beat Ninja rua, rampage told Rua he won and even offered him the trophy. Machida was to ignorant to do anything. I am no longer a Machida fan

You mean like accepting the rematch before he even left the cage?

Whats he supposed to do? I'm no longer champion guys! Here Shogun take the belt... You think Shogun would want that either?

Lyoto did excactly what he should do. He acknowledged that it was the judges decision, not his, and was sorry if people don't like it. Then agreed to a rematch.

[BeaverChaser]

What's the worst is Machida was basically in tears during the decision with his head down staring at the canvas knowing he lost, yet when they called his name he took full credit and gave none to Shogun. I remember in Pride when Rampage beat Ninja rua, rampage told Rua he won and even offered him the trophy. Machida was to ignorant to do anything. I am no longer a Machida fan

You mean like accepting the rematch before he even left the cage?

Whats he supposed to do? I'm no longer champion guys! Here Shogun take the belt... You think Shogun would want that either?

Lyoto did excactly what he should do. He acknowledged that it was the judges decision, not his, and was sorry if people don't like it. Then agreed to a rematch.

You're totally ignoring the point.

Machida knows he got his ass beat before Buffer announces his name, then believes he won after they give him the belt. Yes, everything else he did was completely ok, but that's not the issue. Machida knows who won that fight and he isn't giving credit where credit is due.